An interview with Volodymyr Zelensky, president of Ukraine

These are edited highlights of our interview with Volodymyr Zelensky, president of Ukraine, in his office on December 8th, 2022. He began with the effects of occupation. (You can also read our edited highlights of an interview with General Valery Zaluzhny, head of Ukraine’s armed forces.)

Volodymyr Zelensky: It’s a little scary to see how the liberated cities had changed. I used to visit such small towns even then [before the war]. I like them a lot. Then you come, liberate them and witness what has been done to them.

Unfortunately, I must admit that this propaganda model of the Kremlin works with horrific results. [Those who stayed] were cut off from communications and cut off from friends and relatives who had fled. And those who can’t leave are isolated. All of a sudden, they get an [information] helmet put onto their heads—Bam!—and they have to live inside this helmet, like an astronaut. And it is difficult to fight it because they are shown how [Russians] are saving them and how Ukraine is bombing them, and “here you are, the Ukrainians are torturing someone”.

Everything is turned upside down and it is hard to fight. And now, as we free these territories, we understand how much pain they had been through, how they were broken, how they were tortured.

Unfortunately, I think that if Ukraine had been recognised earlier, this tragedy could have been avoided.

The Economist: Where does Russian propaganda stop working? Is there a line?

VZ: It works beyond the borders of Ukraine, beyond the borders of Russia. It worked in the heart of Ukraine, in the heart of Russia, Belarus, Europe, the United States, in Israel. It works in India, in China, in the Arab world. That’s the way it is. There is a format that works—just as Goebbels’ format did. It is chauvinism, racism, everything.

This does not mean that those who succumb to this information are bad people. It is just that it is difficult to fight disinformation. Books, information, media platforms, social networks: you have to take different information from different sources. It is great work to fight Russian disinformation.

TE: Is it calmer today in Ukraine than at the start of the war?

VZ: No. In the East we have a very tough, difficult situation. It’s like World War Two. It’s the same in Bakhmut, in Soledar, the region near Kharkiv, Kremenna, Svatove. It is a real war, with fire, shelling, rockets, artillery, everything.

Then you have the South, in the Azov region, in the occupied territories, some villages in Zaporizhia. There is nothing, no electricity, no water, nothing. And in Kherson people are so happy that we came, but on the other bank of the Dnipro they are using artillery to hit Kherson, against those about whom yesterday they said that “we are one people”. And in Kyiv you see that it’s not that dangerous, but they’ve begun to use rockets and Iranian drones.

TE: At the start of the war we asked you: ‘What is victory?’ And your answer was: ‘Saving as many lives as possible. Because land is good, but it is only territory. Without people it means nothing.’ How has your sense of victory changed?

VZ: My attitude towards people has not changed at all. The fact that the people withstood [the invasion] shows that they have a simple truth, and it resides in their family, in their land, in their flag. When they defend the land, it is not something abstract, it is real, it is part of it. Defending the land and the territory means only one thing: to protect life and purpose.

They cannot live without these very important things. If I can use the word “things” when I am talking about family, children, land, their houses. All of these are part of the people. A very important part.

The people don’t want to change that, and they don’t want to change their identity. They are defending it. But this is key: choose what you want—but do not choose for me, because there is nothing worse than life without freedom.

Victory will come when there is a feeling that people have endured and kept everything. And people do not want to compromise on territory. Why? The issue is deeper than land. No one wants to have a dialogue with these people who unleashed [the war]. Because the people [have come to] hate. That’s the truth.

It’s not the best feeling for humanity to hate but that is basic. In real life when you are attacked for such a long period and when you see that most of the families have lost something or someone. It is a tragedy for families who lost children. I don’t want to live longer than my children. I will hate this life with these people who took my wishes, a piece of me. That’s why the people hate.

TE: You are now making a choice of either carrying on–you have been talking about advancing to the 1991 borders—or saying: no, the price would be too high.

VZ: Why am I against freezing this war? Because in Donbas we have already seen it. They take away part of the territory and then freeze it for some time, to become more powerful occupiers, ready for more occupation, and that’s all.

We do not need to lose people unnecessarily. Understand: we are not at war with Russia; Russia is at war with us on our territory. They have to withdraw. Of course, they will pay for generations. You will see, any aggression has a high cost. But that is in the future. Today this is how it should end because otherwise it is not finished, it is just frozen. Just to leave it as it is now, to say, ok, let’s stop and they take Donbas, the south of our country, or part of it, and Crimea remains with them...Why? “Because it is time to do so and you should”? We will not be able to, no one would forgive it.

TE: But how many lives are you going to lose?

VZ: Russia came and they are killing our people. And what should we tell people? “Take everything that is ours, and we will go to Poland”? Many left, but the majority of the country remained, and are not going anywhere else and are going to stand to the end.

TE: Tony Blinken, America’s secretary of state, is talking about settling along the lines of February 23rd. Can you see that as a scenario?

VZ: This would not be a finale, because no one understands what security guarantees mean. We had the Budapest Memorandum. I was told: “Do not be afraid, everything is fine, there are no nuclear weapons. And it is the right way, and the whole world is going there.” But the whole world has not come, as we have seen.

We gave away nuclear weapons, exchanged them for security guarantees. Did those guarantees work? No. For Russia’s aggression against the principles of peace, against international law, against many things, against the UN Charter and so on. Why is Ukraine alone paying such a high price? We are grateful to our supporters, but we are the ones who are paying.

Yesterday, the president of the Russian Federation said “Azov” is a great operation, it can go on for a long time. He said something about Peter I, [something along the lines of]: “He did not make it, but I did.” We are not at a psychiatrist’s appointment. This is real. It’s as if Napoleon lives in that room, and President Putin lives in this one.

TE: So how do you demonstrate to Putin that he cannot win this war?

VZ: The end is already clear. Why do I say “we have to go to our borders”? Because, if it does not work, he will come back. You see? That’s the main story. We are not in NATO. What are the security guarantees? If he returns, will they help us with weapons again? Can this really protect us from a full-scale invasion? No.

We must look at the real picture, when the whole world, first of all, shows not only support, but diplomatically, economically, with sanctions, isolation shows that aggression must be paid for. To go to the borders and then pay.

How many people is Putin[ready to kill]?... He takes people from both sides. He takes our people and sends his citizens to get killed. If he now withdraws to the 1991 borders, then the possible path of diplomacy will begin. That is who can turn the war from a military path to a diplomatic one. Only he can do it.

TE: But that requires the fall of Putin’s government.

VZ: The sooner the war ends and if Russia chooses the way to recognise the tragic mistake of starting it, the longer the Russian president will secure his life and the life of his entourage.

TE: How important do you think it is to continue to speak to Russian people?

VZ: The citizens of that country allowed the leader they elected to seize and kill another land. Are they responsible? Yes. There are criminals and there are those who kept silent for a very long time, and then said: “We can’t stay silent.”

If they believe they are good Russians, they will definitely oppose the regime, will do everything to make the regime fall, and it will fall. It is a matter of time. If it falls and you were there and did everything you could, the whole world will applaud.

Prove it to your children. Do not be afraid, go out, speak. Did they take you away for 25 days? What’s so terrible? Here they took a life, took a child for ever, killed a person for ever. Why are you comparing? “I was released, I was taken away for 25 days, I have already done my job.” No, you haven’t. Why? Because for many years you kept silent. And you are not guilty before me, you are guilty before yourself.

TE: How do you balance the strategy with the fact that people want their children back?

VZ: For today we don’t need to because over 95 or 96 % of people want to de-occupy all their territory after Russia did it. I think the big mistake was in 2014, but the biggest mistake, the tragic one, was on the 24th of February, because that is the point [after which] nobody wants to come back, to any compromises. [Putin] knows his audience. He knew that if Russian society did not support him, he would not go. That’s why after February 24th, everyone is guilty. How else could it be? Is Putin brave? No. He is an opportunist. And if he had this opportunity to attack Ukraine, it means that the society supported it. ■

Read more of our recent coverage of the Ukraine crisis